BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER PROBLEM…(5299)
Subject: Re: brake master cyl prob
From: Steve Wilson <SteveWlson@aol.com>
Jim,
I have a problem with the master cyls out of N3876K. Remembering that the airplane hasn’t flown since 1965 and heaven only knows that happened to it during those years, it is not remarkable that the cyls are frozen up. To give you some idea, the keepers in the front had rusted and when I tried to remove them they fell apart.
Steve,
I guess you’ll have to do whatever it takes to get them apart. Do you have a hydraulic pump of any sort? A hand pump that will pump 1000 psi or more might work. Plumb a hose into the outlet port and apply some high pressure. (you can “T” in a gauge) The aluminum pistons are probably corroded to the steel cylinders. Yes, you may have to apply heat. Having said this, the cylinders or pistons or other parts are probably junk. The only source for any of these that I know of is salvage, so start looking. A local guy adapted some Cleveland master cylinders. (see your Aircraft Spruce catalogue) This may be the best long-term solution for all of us. — Jim
CLEVELAND BRAKE CHROME DISCS…
Are chrome disks for Cleveland brakes better than the plain steel? Swifter Steve Wilson (SteveWlson@aol.com) writes… Chrome disks are about $100 more than the plain steel. I like the chrome OK. There is no difference in the braking. The chrome will eventually wear off and the disks will rust just like the plain steel ones, but in the meantime they look nice and you benefit from low wear on the linings. The problem with any rusted disks is that they wear out the brake linings. With the present cost of linings (since they did away with asbestos), it actually might make the chrome disks a better deal financially too. Enjoy the Clevelands. They are so much easier to maintain than the Goodyear brakes. — Steve Wilson
GOOP IN THE BRAKE LINES???
Was checking through the information on the Swift site and noticed an article on hydraulic fluid turning into goo in the break lines. I owned N90305 for about 13 years and never had this problem. Then we used Mil 3586 (Red) in the system. But back at the start of WWII the Army Airfare also used Mil 3580 (Blue) fluid. If I remember correctly the 3580 was an alcohol mix that was used in airplanes with natural rubber o rings and tubes and the 3586 was used with the new synthetic rubber parts that were just coming on line. If these were mixed in a system it turned into a goo that precluded use of the system. Just a thought. Auto hydraulic fluid has an alcohol base. — Larry Simms (larrys@abs.net)
WHEEL COVERS…(6399)
From: Jim Letourneau <lletourn@pressenter.com>
Subject: Re: Wheel Covers
Did the Temco’s have the domed covers originally? I have one that needs to be replaced and before I make one I’m curious if I should be trying to duplicate the dome. I have Cleveland’s, as you know. If there are any stock ones around will they fit? Are there any stock ones around?
Jim:
Yes, the wheel covers were actually a Goodyear p/n. They are the same for all Swifts, high or low flange brakes, with a dome. The Cleveland wheels are a little different in diameter and most Swifts with Clevelands just use flat covers, which don’t look as good as the originals. I don’t know of any standard wheel covers that will work. — Jim
THAT’S THE “BRAKES”… (11499)
From: George McClellan <WWIIPILOT@aol.com>
Subject: Re: brake repairs
I own a GC1B N655S, I have Cleveland disk brakes and what appears to be stock toe brake masters. I have tried every thing to get better braking action with no luck. Is it possible that I have a high volume low pressure master trying to work a low volume high pressure slave? What masters should I have. I have a master that is leaking now and need to know weather to rebuild or replace. Thanks, George McClellan
George,
There is not a problem using the original master cylinders with the Cleveland brakes. There could be several problems. The brakes may need a thorough bleeding. The Cleveland brake linings need a “brake in” procedure. If the linings are glazed, they might have to be replaced or at least removed and sanded down to remove the surface material. The “brake in” procedure is published and comes with the brake kit. This is part of the STC paperwork and should be retained in the aircraft records as Instructions for Continued Airworthiness. Also, the “O” rings in the wheel cylinders may need replacing, or simply removal and coating with petroleum jelly.
Then there are the cups in the master cylinders themselves… Much has been written recently about this subject. You can’t just run out and buy new original master cylinders these days, as a matter of fact it may be hard to get good, serviceable rubber cups for the original master cylinders. If you have a leaking master cylinder that may be a simple “O” ring replacement. (if anything related to removal of the master cylinders can be called “simple”)! I’m sure with a little attention you can your his brakes working properly. — Jim
BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER REMOVAL… (11599)
From: George McClellan <WWIIPILOT@aol.com>
Subject: Re: brakes
Thanks for the comments. To date the rotor’s are true and the linings are not glazed and the system has been bled with care several times. As for the lubrication of the O rings, I will have to look at that. I have to stand very hard to get any breaking action. I think that two holes in the floor so I could drag my feet would be more effective than what I have now. What is the time required to remove the masters ? George
George:
To remove the master cylinders depends on your physical condition! 30 years ago, it was just a miserable job, but now at my age and condition its pretty near impossible! It involves laying on your back with the emergency crank down handle poking a hole in your back and trying to get your bifocals to focus on the nuts, bolts, and cotter keys to remove the cylinders. If you remove the seats and pad the spar area, including the crank down handle and if you can see without bifocals, it’s not too bad a job. As a check, raise the airplane on jacks and have someone apply and release the brakes. Observe the action at the wheel. Is it sluggish? Can you rotate the wheel by hand? You say the linings are not glazed, well, removing them and sanding them might still be worth a try. It’s easy to do with Cleveland’s. A hint for bleeding Cleveland brakes, remove the brake head from the axle, leaving the 1/4″ brake hose intact. Loosen any clamps as necessary. Bleed the brake holding it up as high as possible, like higher than the wing. You sometimes get additional air out of the system this way. — Jim
GUEST ANSWER MAN STEVE WILSON RE: GEORGE’S BRAKE PROBLEM…
From: Steve Wilson <SteveWlson@aol.com>
Subject: Re: brake repairs
George,
I read your questions and the answer from Jim Montague regarding your brakes. I don’t know what experience you have with the Swift vs other airplanes and just wanted to add a little (non-mechanical) info regarding Swift brakes.
I started out like a lot of folks with Goodyear brakes. They really worked great! In fact you had to be a little careful not to get on them too hard and cause the airplane to go over on its nose. The first thing I noticed when I went to Cleveland brakes was that they were not as effective as I had been used to. Personally, I do not think this is a bad thing. Not that I would want to, but I think it would be very difficult to get the Cleveland’s to lock up on application. I’ve stood on them pretty darned hard a few times. Most of the people I have let taxi my airplane, who are used to modern “nose dragging” airplanes, complain that there are not enough brakes. I disagree with them. There are plenty of brakes available. Now just to set the record straight, I’ve flown many Swifts with all the common brakes and mine is no different from the others. Also I completely overhauled my brake system throughout in 1996. It came out the same as before, but no leaking.
George, you may have some mechanical problems (certainly the leak needs tending to), but I just wonder if you are not experiencing “normal” braking for the Cleveland brakes on a Swift. Just a thought. If you need help, feel free to contact me. Good luck… Steve W
MORE FROM GEORGE AND STEVE RE: BRAKES…
From: Steve Wilson <SteveWlson@aol.com>
Subject: Re: brake repairs
In a message dated 99-11-22 06:13:33 EST, you write:
<< Thanks Steve, I think I will start from scratch this winter. I just hope I can find parts for the Masters. Has fluid corrosion been a problem? Has anyone rebored to a metric size cup ? “ALL” your comments have been true and I agree that brakes on tail draggers are meant for PARKING. George M >>
George,
The master cyls have suffered quite a bit over the years. I don’t know of a suitable replacement, although I have heard there are some. I have “cleaned” up several original cyls enough to get them to work and not leak. When they are corroded, I use a 12 ga. shotgun wire brush and run it in the cyls until the rough edges are off the pits. It is not possible to get all of the pits out, but I’ve had a lot of luck just getting the edges smoothed out. I’ve used the “U” cups supplied by “Swift Parts” in the past. With the current problems I don’t know their status, but I think Joe can supply the correct part number. I have not really shopped it, however. One thing I do is to partially “back flush” the system each year at the annual. In a closed system like brakes there is the potential for a lot of problems to creep in and not be noticed (see Dick Collins’ comments in the newsletter a few years ago about Mil H-5606 gum formation). What I do is use a squeegee to remove the fluid from the reservoir, then pump fluid through one brake (slave) cyl until it partially fills the reservoir, then repeat the process with the other brake. Then I clean out the reservoir for the final time and fill with fresh fluid. This of course does not purge the entire system at once, but over two or three years, it does the job. When I think about airplanes flying around that have never done this, I think I am ahead of the game. Please stay in touch and let me know what you find… Steve W
SWELLING BRAKE HOSES… (11599)
From: MarkH85@aol.com
Subject: Re: GTS Internet Update#4
Denis ,
About George’s brake problem, We had a brake that didn’t work too good and the problem was the brake hoses were swelling up when pedel pressure was applied. About the number of Swifts , It depends what a person would call a Swift, You’re about right but if you count paper work only Swifts, its a few more. Mark
MORE ON THE BRAKE ISSUE… (11699)
From: Donald Williams <donaldwilliams@prodigy.net>
Subject: Swift brakes, don’t make them hard to do, they are not.
The operation is easy. If you have a good solid pedal that gets solid without excessive travel then the masters and lines are good. If this is your situation then the problem is in the slaves which can both be rebuilt and bled in two hours. Remove the clips then wheels then the brake line then caliper. You can use the master or air to push out the piston and puck. If you use the master leave the brake line connected until you push out the piston with the brake pedal. Use a piece of scotch bright or very fine wet or dry sand paper to clean the cylinder portion of the caliper. If you use wet or dry then follow up with scotch bright and very carefully flush the entire assembly with laquer thinner or spray brake cleaner. Cleanliness is next to godliness. Lube the new O ring with either slicone greese or petrolatum and reasemble and bleed. If my pucks have been contaminated with any 5606 then I soak them overnight in laquer thinner to remove any trace of petroleum products. The pucks and rotors must be free of any petroleum to work right. My family has owned N80901 for more than 25 years. Don Williams
YET EVEN MORE ON THE BRAKE ISSUE… (11699)
From: Wesley & Susan Knettle <wsknettl@centuryinter.net>
Subject: Re: November #5 GTS Internet Update
Re: MarkH85’s (Mark Holliday) comments on brake hoses for George’s brake problem. I have found this many times. Can be caused by old age where the hoses liner collapses then plugs the line when you push on the pedal or can happen from contamination with the wrong brake fluids. Have an observor watch each flexible brake hose while you apply pressure to the pedal. If the hose grows and the brake doesn’t then you know what is next.
WELDABLE MASTER CYLINDER???
From: Ed Lloyd <edlloydaustin@juno.com>
Hi Jim,
I saw Bob’s dilemma on Yahoo site. Do you know if the aluminum in the brake cylinder is weldable? If it is, I may be able to repair his old cylinder if all else fails. If the end can be heliarced back on, I feel I can rework the inside for him in my lathe. Would rather see him do that than change configuration. Cheers……..Ed Lloyd
Ed:
To my memory, the master cylinders were steel, and, I think, brazed together. I went over to the airport this morning with magnet in hand, and yes, they are steel. It shouldn’t be too hard to braze one back together if that’s all thats wrong with it. — Jim
STOCK GOODYEAR WHEELS AND BRAKES… (12199)
CLIP JOINT…
Subj: Brakes
From: peetking@earthlink.net (Pete King)
Jim,
Much talk about brakes makes me curious. I currently fly both types of brakes and have never had trouble with them being inadequate in stopping. The only differences of note are two. The Goodyear model takes longer to service or change pucks — thou you don’t need a rivit tool — which I don’t own. As originally designed the Goodyear model only used four retaining clips for the brake disc. If, as too many of us know, even one clip was broken or otherwise lost, you were a disaster waiting to happen. If, however, eight clips were used instead of four — the problem goes away. After having a wheel go to pieces several years ago, I added four button style clips to the original four that were held in by the peg cast into the wheel. Haven’t even had one clip break in several hundred hours — much less worry about losing another brake or having one lock up. I would like to have some spare clips — just in case — insurance. Do you know who sells them?? Regards, Pete King
Pete,
No, I don’t know who might have some spare clips. If you haven’t priced them lately get ready for some sticker shock! Pat Moore has a complete set of Goodyear low flange wheels and brakes, including tires, for $200.00. This includes the clips. I think 8ea. of those clips cost more than that these days! — Jim
CLEVELAND WHEELS AND BRAKES INSTALLATION… (12399)
Subject: Re: N80572
From: Bill Doty <wdoty@seidata.com>
JIM,
I finally received the Cleveland wheels / Brakes for 80572..I beleive the current wheel/brakes are original GoodYear and presume still have what every brake fluid was used at that time. What fluid should I use after a good flush out of the old fluid ?? Any other comments on the installation ??? BILL
Bill,
The fluid should be mil 5606. You will find the bleeder screws as furnished will hit the ribs in the wheel well upon retraction. Substitute plain 1/8″ Allan headed pipe plugs. You can get these at any hardware store in steel or brass, if you want aluminum you need to get them from an aircraft source. For bleeding, just crack them open slightly. It may be best to bleed from the bottom up with a pressure pot. To bleed the old fashioned way, remove the brake head from the axle, leaving the 1/4″ hose intact, loosen clamps as necessary, hold the brake up as high as possible, above the wing centersection, and bleed, you can get extra air out of it this way.Use the break in procedure as given in the mfrs. instructions. Don’t tighten the 1/8″ pipe plugs extremely tight, the pipe thread can break the aluminum casting. Where did you get your brakes? Most suppliers have been out of the 199-48 kits. Pass your old Goodyear’s on to someone who is trying to stay all original! Some parts for them are getting hard to find. (and expensive)! — Jim
CLEVELAND WHEELS AND BRAKES INSTALLATION PART TWO… (12399)
Subject: Re: GOODYEAR
From: Bill Doty <wdoty@seidata.com>
JIM,
Thanks for the quick reply. I got the (Cleveland) brakes thru Joe at Swift Parts. Took 2-3 months to get them. You can put out the news that I have the original parts available, to anyone that needs them. I have no idea what a fair price is for the used parts. How do you i.d. hi-flange vs lo-flange in case someone wants to know ? — BILL
Bill,
I can tell by looking, but it’s hard to explain, the low flange have a small puck (lining) about the size of a quarter and a fairly small disk, not having one here, I can’t give you dimensions. The high flange have a puck over an inch in diameter and a bigger disk. Most ’46’s had high flange brakes. The ’48 and later had low flange brakes. Local (MN) Swifter Pat Moore has a pretty good set of low flange Goodyear’s, complete with decent tires, for $200. I would guess that N80572 had high flange Goodyear’s, if they are in good shape, I would guess they might be worth about the same. I gave my old Goodyear’s away for nothing to a guy who was doing authentic restoration. You might consider donating your Goodyear’s to the Swift Museum. — Jim
GEORGE’S BRAKE PROBLEMS RESOLVED… (12499)
In recent updates Monty and others have dealt with George McClellan’s brake woes which involved poor brake effectiveness with his Clevelands. Here is the final info from George on those problems…
From: George McClellan <WWIIPILOT@aol.com>
The brake problem was brake linings that in the past had been soaked in oil. I could sand them off and they would look good until I tried to reseat them. I would find an oil residue on the disk. It is nice to be able to do an engine runup. George
WEAK LINK IN THE BRAKE SYSTEM…
From Swifter GENE GILLOTT, BC, Canada. 7JAN97
Once, during a run up, I suddenly had the left brake pedal go “limp” with the tendency of the bird to make a sharp left turn on the apron. Could have been serious if it had occurred during a cross wind landing! The problem turned out to be the aluminum linkage between the left brake pedal and the master cylinder. These appear to be stamped out of sheet stock and there is not that much material around the bolt holes at either end. The holes elongate due to wear and probably never see any lubrication. In this case, the material was so thin that it finally let go when full brake pressure was applied with the resulting loss of braking action. I mentioned this to Charlie some years back but it doesn’t hurt to bring it up again. A close inspection every few years would be not a bad idea.
EVIL GOO…
From Swifter DICK COLLINS, California. 15MAY97
Ran across a couple of things that should be of interest to Swifters and a lot of other GA types. The first problem was with Bill Gass’ Swift, and occurred after about three years of storage. The aircraft was inspected and returned to service. Bill was experiencing ground handling directional problems that eventually ended up in a non damaging groundloop. (Editor’s note: For those of you who don’t know Bill, if a Swift groundloops and he is at the controls, you can be damn sure it’s a mechanical problem…) To make a long story short the difficulty was determined to be in the brakes. When the brake line was disconnected at the wheel cylinder and brake pressure was applied, a gooey substance was excreted from the brake line, This was ongnally 5606 “red juice” that had congealed. Bill has a retractable, non steerable tail wheel that requires some braking for directional control. The congealed fluid caused a delay in the action of the brakes, and another delay in the removal of brake application. Not good situation.
I just started overhaul on all of my Swift hydraulics. Flap actuator looked good no leaks. All o-rings looked good, that is not squared of f, and still pliable. Fluid clean with slight film residue on the bottom of actuator end pieces. Removal of the brake lines at the wheel cylinders indicated the same problem that Bill had, but probably not quite as congealed. The 5606 brake fluid took about ten minutes for the first drop to come out. A couple of tablespoons of this “goo” slowly d;ipped out before normal fluid flow started. The line was 601 Aeroquip and is supplying fluid to Cleveland 30-798 brake assemblies, and had been installed for more than ten years without the need to bleed the system.
On Bill’s Swift the line was fabric covered, thought to be 303 Aeroquip, supplying Goodyear high flange brakes. We are unsure what brand 5606 was used in both aircraft as the original fluid, but it would he highly unlikely that it came from the same manufacturer and batch. I have noticed in the past that when the lid is removed from the one gallon can of 5606 a spider web thin sticky “string” is formed. This is also observed sometimes when the aircraft reservoir filler plugs are removed. The circulating fluid in the systems appeared good.
SUMMARY:
SUBJECT: Red hydraulic fluid Mil 5606
PROBLEM: Fluid solidifies/congeals when there is little or no circulation.
POSSIBLE CAUSE: Oxidation and/or chemical combination with hose liner or die-cast aluminum.
RECOMMENOATION: On any “dead end” hydraulic system the technician should consider bleeding the system every several years.
Dick Collins
NOT CHEAP DEPT: CLEVELAND BRAKES ON A SWIFT… (040200)
Subject: Cleveland brakes
From: Roy Cook <RCook63133@aol.com>
Hello Jim, It has been a while since I e-mailed u, Hope you are well. As you know, my little bird has Goodyear brakes. I would like to change them to Cleveland brakes. I found them for the Swift at Chief Aircraft. The price for brakes with chrome discs is $825. Do you know of somewhere I may be able to find them at a better price. The kit number is 199-48c. Thank You, Roy
Roy,
I don’t think anyone sells them for less than Chief. I think the list price is over $1,000.00 When I bought my set for my present Swift I checked around and Chief had the cheapest price in the country. Actually, I feel that is still a pretty good deal. Having said that, for a GC-1A you must be aware that Cleveland wheels and brakes are heavier (8 pounds I think) than the Goodyears. I would hesitate to tell you NOT to install Clevelands, but try to keep the weight down on the poor little airplane. If it were my GC -1A, I would keep the Goodyears and maintain them very carefully. Yes, I did have Clevelands on my last GC-1A. — Jim
GO GO GO WITH GOODYEAR… (040300)
Subject: Re: Goodyear Brakes
From: Roy Cook <RCook63133@aol.com>
Jim, I got your e-mail answer to my question about the conversion of the Goodyear brakes to Clevelands on my GC-1A and have decided to stay with the Goodyears. Now I have to ask where do I get part numbers and parts I need to overhaul them. I’ve looked in the manuals that I bought but I don’t see anything in them that give the answers I need. I’m sorry if these are questions I should know the answer to, but I don’t. Thanks again, Roy
Roy,
There are two versions of Goodyear wheels and brakes, the high flange and low flange. I presume you have the high flange. There might be some new parts out there, but you probably don’t want to even know the prices. So many sets of Goodyear wheels and brakes have been removed that there have to be a lot of them available used. I would advertise and try to buy several sets of used Goodyears and use the best parts to build up a serviceable set. Be aware they were probably not removed in excellent condition! I know the set of Goodyears I removed from my Swift were worn out. Remember, the reason I suggested retaining the Goodyears in your case was the fact that they are lighter than the Clevelands and your GC-1A doesn’t need extra empty weight. If you can’t find some serviceable used parts, or if you don’t have the ability to overhaul your own brakes, I suggest you go back to plan “A” and call Joe at Swift Parts and see if they can give you a good price on Clevelands. — Jim
MONTY HAS MORE THOUGHTS REGARDING THE CARE AND FEEDING OF ORIGINAL GOODYEAR BRAKES… (040400)
(Monty sent the following to Swifter Roy Cook…)
I would like to offer you some hints on how to check over Goodyear brakes. The main parts are, the wheels, the brake head, the linings (the “pucks”) the brake disks, and the brake clips which hold the disks in the wheels. Inspect the wheels for cracks and worn brake keys. The keys are replaceable, but if they are worn, I would suggest you just get a different inner wheel half. Inspect and grease the wheel bearings. Inspect the brake disks for wear, rust, warping and worn key slots. Make sure they are Swift brake disks, back in the ’40’s there were thinner (cheaper) disks around and many found there way onto Swifts. The thin disks work OK, but the linings just don’t last as long because they have to extend further with the thin disks. Sorry I can’t give you part numbers, I think the good disks are about .150 thick. Clean and inspect the brake head. (anvil) If the piston bore is scored or scratched it can be sanded with 320 wet or dry sandpaper. Check the recess for the stationary lining and make sure it isn’t worn or deformed from corrosion. There are just two “O” rings which are standard sizes, one on the piston and one on the cap. (well, one small one on the AN fitting too) Look for cracks at the attach bolt holes. To reassemble, bolt the brake on the axle, place the linings in position then put the disk in place, then slide the wheel and tire assembly on the axle, lining up the brake keys with the keyslots. Last but not least are the little spring steel clips which hold the brake disks in the wheels. There are 4 of these and they are very important. The latest type have little buttons to hold them in place and you should have this type. The normal replacement items are the linings, the “O” rings and the clips. These parts are hard to find new, and the price is unbelievable. For example, the little clips which look like about a 25 cent item from the hardware store are more like $25 bucks, if you can find them. If you replace the tires while the brakes are off, buy the cheapest McCreary (Air Trac) tires, they are much lighter than premium tires. This is especially important on a Swift, because heavy tires slow down the gear retraction. — Jim
MONTY IS REAL EASY ON HIS TIRES… (040500)
Subj: Tires,
From:Steve Whittenberger <jssjwhitt@email.msn.com>
I learn something every week from the Answer man. Subject is tires. You said to replace tires with lighter McCrearys. Sounds good to me as I am just getting ready to put P-51 gear doors on N78193 and I of course will need new tires. Question is: Since they are lighter than premium tires how long do they last (years, months, landings) when used from asphalt strips. Thanks, Steve Whittenberger
Steve,
Darned if I know. I fly so few hours that I usually have to throw them away from age before the tread wears. Maybe someone else will comment. The ones I have now I think I put on in 1993. At maybe 125 hours, they still look pretty good. (of course I make nothing but greaser landings) — Jim
BLEEDING CLEVELAND BRAKES… (060500)
Subject: Re: Cleveland Brakes
From: Bob Runge <ejectr@javanet.com>
Jim: I am replacing both of my brake line hoses with new ones. Do you bleed the brakes in the same manner as an auto? Thanks. Bob Runge
Bob,
You can try it, however most aircraft bleed the best from the “bottom up” using a pressure can. Also, I have found that Clevelands on a Swift sometimes won’t bleed out completely unless you hold the brake head about level with the wing leading edge and bleed it there. The stock bleeder plug as furnished with the Cleveland brakes hits a rib in the wheelwell on gear retraction, and is usually replaced with a plain 1/8″ pipe plug. For bleeding, just hold a finger over the opening. — Jim
BRAKE PROBLEM – OR- STEVE’S GETTIN’ TIRED OF DOIN’ 720’S… (100100)
From: Steve Whittemberger <jssjwhitt@email.msn.com>
Jim, I’m having a spat with my left brake. Symptoms: Pedal goes to the floor with no braking action. (Kind of fun doing 270 degree turns to turn left– but not very practicable and scary on landing). So we bled the brakes (many many times) using a pressure can and eliminated bubbles and got good flow. Took off the brake lines and inspected for goo and other nasty stuff. Ground test was not good so we pulled the master cylinder, called for parts to Swift Parts, installed the parts and put it back on. Viola– good brake for about 6 or eight turns over to the fuel pump before takeoff. However, as I was turning to run up the brake failed again–so a few 270’s later got it back over to George’s hangar for another look. Re-bled etc etc several times. Good brake and did a taxi test this time with lots of left and right turns. After about 8-10 left turns– no brake. More 270’s to the hangar etc. When we rebuilt the master cylinder, we cleaned it, scrubbed it with some emory paper (very fine) and reseated the the innards. Looks good, but works not so good. Analyis is that with the pedal going all the way in after many applications and no leaks anywhere– it must be bypassing in the master cylinder. Any suggestions on what to do next. Monday we’ll take a crack at it again and tear down the MC again and see what it looks like. Tired of 270 degree turns. Cheers. Steve Whittenberger
Steve,
You say “master cylinder” – there are two master cylinders – a left and a right. Um, did you mean that or are you not not aware of the L & R master cylinders? You don’t say what kind of brakes you have. Most Swifts have Cleveland brakes these days. Sometimes they are difficult to bleed. Even with a pressure bleeder and working from the bottom up the air just won’t bleed out completely. If this happens, remove the brake from the axle and undo the two clamps from the strut. (you may as well remove the gear door) Then hold the brake up about to the leading edge of the wing and bleed it automobile style, by depressing the brake pedal and cracking the bleeder screw in the brake. (temporarily reassemble the brake and install a dummy rotor between the linings) There are other things that could happen, like an obstructed line, or oil on the lining, but bleeding is the best place to start. With the airplane on jacks, have someone apply the brakes in the cockpit. Observe the brake to see if it’s being applied. Try rotating the wheel with the brakes on. Make sure you keep the reservoir full of 5606. — Jim
DARYL’S EXCELLENT BRAKE BLEEDING ADVENTURE… (110100)
From: Daryl Dressler <dddressler2@mmm.com>
Subject: Re: October #5 GTS Internet Update
Greetings,
Several issues ago there was some discussion about bleeding brakes. A couple of weeks ago, I was trying to bleed my brakes by pumping them up from the bottom. I pumped until the reservoir was full but still had air in the system and spongy brakes. I did this several times until I realized ( what most others may know so maybe I am a little slow) that, with the airplane in a nose high attitude, the master cylinder is angled upward. The line from the brakes enters the front of the master cylinder and the line to the reservoir exits the rear. When you pump up from the bottom, the master cylinder fills from the rear because it is angled upward. As soon as the level covers the exit, fluid is then pumped to the reservoir leaving air trapped in the front of the master cylinder. I raised the tail until the master cylinders were inclined downward slightly back to front. Then I pumped the system full from the brake cylinder at the wheel. It worked perfectly the first time ! Daryl Dressler
THOSE “BLEEDING” BRAKES… (110200)
From: “Bill Jacobs” <wjacobs@sybase.com>
Subject: RE: November #1 GTS Internet Update
Denis:
A tech question regarding brake bleeding. Regarding brake bleeding: I had problems getting firm brakes on my Swift with Clevelands after a c/c rebuild. Just couldn’t get those darned bubbles out. And I *hate* bleeding “upward” as all the crud and oxidation goes up into the master cylinders and reservoir. So, I used the following procedure. I filled the reservoir and applied 5 PSI of compressed regulated air. Then I bled to clean fluid on both bleeders while mounted on the gear. This got the crud out. Then I refilled, disconnected the air, and removed both calipers, installing “C” clamps to avoid disloding the pistons when I reapplied the compressed air source. Then I individually bled each caliper while held inverted to evacuate the bubbles. This worked really well – rock-hard brakes first try, and clean fluid throughout (and on the floor…)
And Charlie Cummins, I can hear you laughing ’cause I’m just sure you know a faster way but I didn’t call you. My question is, could the 5 PSI in any way hurt the seals in the masters cylinders? And heck, if Charlie’s out there, is there a faster way to get both clean, flushed fluid and bubble-free brakes? — Bill Jacobs
Bill,
The brakes have (perhaps) several hundred pounds pressure in the system when they are applied, so 5 psi should be ok. I never used that exact procedure but don’t see why it wouldn’t work. — Jim
BAD BRAKES…(030401)
From: Don Cumpston <don@penn.com>
No swift action in NW PA, too much snow and too much wind. N78320 is having a slight brake problem on the left side. The Cleveland brake drags, pads are free and slide on pins OK. Appears as thought the piston is not returning into the caliper. You can press it back in but the wheel will not turn free after the brakes are applied like the other side. I think the caliper must need rebuilt.
Don,
Take it apart and lube up the “O” ring with Vaseline. Sand the walls of the brake cylinder with 400 grit sandpaper. Reassemble. Bleed the brake. It should be OK then.
BAD BRAKES PART DEUX…(030401)
From: Steve Roth <Swift97B@aol.com>
I suggest taking brake assembly off and using fine Scotch Brite to LIGHTLY clean shafts/pins which are supposed to float in metal plate on axle assembly. These shafts/pins pick up dirt and grime (and some corrosion) and begin to bind. They are supposed to float easily (the assembly should “flop around”. Don’t use too much force to clean grime or you will remove plating on these shafts/pins and they will rust. Clean the shafts/pins as you would oil a gun — light coat of oil to prevent corrosion. You could use Carb Cleaner spray (a solvent) to spray them clean periodically, then do the “gun barrel” wipe. If you grab ahold of the caliper assembly, you should be able to move it easily, and rattle it around. If it does not move, clean those two shafts/pins as mentioned above. This is a common problem with Cleveland brakes, but one easy to keep an eye on. — Steve Roth
RIGHT SIDE BRAKES… (040101)
Subj: Swift right side brakes
From: Eddis Shields <wvswift@aol.com>
Jim:
Did the swift right side brakes have master cylinders on them? If so, how do you connect them up with the other side? Is there any drawings on the installation? I can’t find anything in the parts catalogue. Eddie
Eddie
No, the factory setup uses a set of links and arms to actuate the same set of master cylinders. Dennis Mee might have some drawings. Steve Wilson has factory installed right hand brakes in N77753. John Cross has double set of master cylinders in N2398B, but I think someone installed them sometime in the past without paperwork. I presume N2398B has check valves properly installed because I used to fly that airplane and the brakes worked fine. The Swift parts catalogue is not very adequate for a lot of things! Univair used to have drawings for the RH brakes, I don’t know if they might have some at Athens or not. — Jim
STAINLESS STEEL BRAKE DISCS…(070301)
From: Don Thomson <SwifterDon@compuserve.com>
Do you have any advice on whether to install stainless or chrome disks? Also, I’m not sure what the model # is for the Clevelands I have installed (they’re the standard STC’d ones). I want to be sure to order the right disk to fit my standard size wheels. One more thing, as long as I have your attention. What’s the part # for the replacement pads for the Clevelands. I might as well do everything at the same time.
Don
I don’t have the stainless — but I wish I did! I have no experience with them, but they sure look nice! The P/N for the Cleveland linings is 199-05300. I THINK the P/N for the disk is P/N 164-04300 for the chrome, but I’m not sure about that, check visually! — Jim
PS… I don’t have stainless (or chrome!) I think the stainless and chrome take the same disks.
Well, I mean the stainless is P/N 40-113A and the chrome is 40-113C (I think!)
ADVICE FOR DON “BETTER USE ORGANIC BRAKE LININGS” THOMSON… (070401)
From: Chuck Widowski <CWid71358@aol.com>
Subject: Re: July #3 GTS Internet Update
If Don is planning on buying stainless discs, I have just installed a set on a Cherokee. The STC holder for that installation ( sorry I don’t remember the manufacturer.) requires you to use organic brake linings. If you need the manufacturer of these discs send me an e-mail and I will look it up.
Chuck Widowski
BLEED VALVE ON CLEVELAND BRAKES HIT RIB IN WHEELWELL…(120101)
Subj: More Questions
From: John Cross <crosses@houston.rr.com>
Have you ever run into a problem with the bleed valve of the Cleveland brake rubbing against the rib (former) in the wheel well? John Cross N2398B
John
Yes. EVERYONE who has Cleveland brakes has that problem. I simply discard the Cleveland bleeder and install a simple 1/8″ pipe plug with an Allen head. For bleeding, I just crack the pipe plug, bleed the brake, and retighten the pipe plug. The pipe plug can be purchased from aircraft sources or a hardware store. I’ve seen where some airplanes have the rib ground out to provide clearance, but I’d rather not do that. — Jim
BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER BOOTS…(060302)
Subj: Master cylinder boots
From: Doc Moore <darladoc@sport.rr.com>
Jim:
Would you have any suggestions about where to get replacement rubber boots for the master cylinders? Steve at Parts said they don’t have any of the originals but do have one thats close and will work.Would appreciate your input. Thanks, Doc Moore
Doc
I just rebuilt the master cylinders in N2460B and wrote down the p/n’s that were on the rubber boots, but now I can’t find my notes! I remember sharing that info with Steve Wilson, maybe he wrote it down. Even with a number, the originals might be unobtainable. The original Goodyear master cylinder assembly was p/n 395-20293, if thats any help. Maybe the boots from a small foreign car or motorcycle would work. — Monty
STEVE SAYS SWIFT PARTS MASTER CYLINDER BOOTS WORK…(060402)
Subject: Master Cylinder Boots
From: Steve Roth <swift97b@aol.com>
Monty: The master cylinder rubber boots that Swift Parts has will fit the Swift master cylinders if you take off the parking brake parts (which are a menace anyway). I just did mine and the new ones worked perfectly. Steve Roth
BRAKE BLEEDING PROCEDURE…(OCT 02)
Subj: Brakes
From: Marvin Homsley <marvin@accesstoledo.com>
Jim, I worked on my brakes a little bit and they are better than ever now. I have Clevelands on it. I had some air trapped in the caliper on one side and was not sure how to get it out. The bleeder screw is on the bottom but it has been replaced by a plug. I know this was suggested at one of the maintenance forums so this is a good thing. Someone else must have done it years ago. Anyway pumping the brake pedals and removing the plug did not seem to do any good since the air was in the top and the fluid came out the bottom. I ended up simply taking the brake line off of the caliper and submerging the end of the brake line in about an inch of hydraulic fluid. Just enough to completely cover the entire fitting on the end of the line. Now someone can pump the brakes and fluid will go out into the small cup I was using but could not suck air back in because the end of the hose was submerged. I did get a little air out of the line and it is real obvious when air comes out. Then I took a squirt can of hydraulic fluid and filled the caliper while the hose was off of it. Reconnect the brake line while fluid runs everywhere and presto, no more air in the system anywhere. To make the directions short and sweet, just forget about the bleeder screws. Take the hose off, submerge the end of it in fluid and pump away, it works. My brakes are now rock hard and work better than ever. This may be old stuff to some mechanics but I was proud of figuring out a simple solution that worked. I may end up being a decent caretaker of 80740. marvin@accesstoledo.com
Marvin
That sounds good. I have also removed the caliper from the axle and unclamped the brake hose and bled the brake with the thing being up around the wing leading edge. — Jim
MORE ON THE GOOPY BRAKE FLUID DEAL… (JAN 03)
From: Steve Wilson <SteveWlson@aol.com>
Subject: Re: December #4 GTS Internet Update
In a message dated 12/20/2002 19:10:50 Central Standard Time, arbeau@napanet.net writes:
“5606 will absorb a certain amount of moisture from the air over a period of time. If just a small amount of fluid is replaced periodically this will not happen. i.e.: bleeding the brakes once in a while.”
More on 5606 in brakes… This is what I do with any airplane similar to Swift brake system utilizing 5606 installed more than a couple years… (1) Flush system with fresh 5606 in the normal direction. In other words, pushing on brakes while loosening the bleeder screw at the brakes individually. I do this until I am certain the old fluid is out. Now, you only have to do this once if you do the following regularly. (2) Each annual I reverse bleed the system one brake at a time removing the excess 5606 from the reservoir first. What I do with the Swift, is use a squeegee and remove all the fluid from the reservoir on the firewall and then fill it about full from one brake; check it for condition, and discard the fluid. Then move over to the other brake and repeat the process. I check the fluid in the reservoir and if it looks OK I stop, if not, I squeegee it out completely, discard, and continue pumping in new 5606 until it looks OK. Sound like a lot of trouble? Not really after the original flushing. You do bleed your brakes at each annual anyway, don’t you? (he he).. SW
BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER REBUILD… (JUNE 03)
Subj: brake rebuild
From: Paul Smith <paul.smith@bhshealth.org>
Jim,
Do you have any idea where one could get rebuild parts for the original master cylinders. Alternatively are there other master cylinders that could be used to replace the originals? The Swift parts supplier has crapped out on them, and they are trying to find a new one. Thanks
Paul Smith
Paul
Some guys have gotten them resleeved by foreign car shops but I’m sorry I don’t know details. Others have adapted current master cylinders from the Aircraft Spruce catalogue and I don’t know the details of this either. Perhaps someone will read this and help. — Jim
HOW TO REPAIR RUSTY BRAKE MASTER CYLINDERS… (JULY 03)
From: Jim Montague <Swift31B@aol.com>
Subject: How to repair Swift master cylinders
I got a call and it was explained to me how rusty Swift master cylinders can be saved. The existing sleeve must be un-silver soldered and removed. The new sleeve is a piece of 4130 steel, 4″ long, 7/8″ OD 5/8 ID (.060 wall) Two holes, .070 and .030 must be drilled and a snap ring groove cut same as the old sleeve. The new sleeve is silver soldered in, same as the original. For corrosion resistance, the bore can be nickel plated or even gold plated, it only takes a tiny amount of gold. — Jim
5606 BREAK DOWN… (NOV 03)
Subj: Brakes
From: Kerby Warden <L64Kilo@aol.com>
Jim.
Tom Yoder ( 33TC ) felt his brakes fail to release properly a few days ago. Pulled the calipers, found 5606 thick as honey same as last year. Talked to a local chemist. 5606 will “break down” (he had a more technical name for it) with heat. Apparently the high temps – Ambient, Firewall, & Brake Pad – are too much for it. The runway here at Weiser is 25′ wide. 09 – 27 with the prevailing winds from the South. We use brakes for takeoff and rollout most of the year. With the high ambient temp, the extra use of brakes, and flying almost every day ( we usually are rolling by 7:30 AM ), the 5606 just does not last even 12 months. Everyone should drain the calipers at least yearly, more often in conditions similar to the above. I know this all has been said before, so take it as a reminder. Started work on N90388. Need a straight (not bent) firewall. Dorothy had sold the one from 90388, and the one I have is bent (crumpled) on the lower left. Fly Safe & Land Straight! Kerby
STEVE WILSON SAYS KERBY IS RIGHT RE: 5606 IN THE BRAKE SYSTEM… (NOV 4)
From: Steve Wilson <SteveWlson@aol.com>
Subject: Re: November #1 GTS Internet Update
Yep… Kerby is right! I wrote an answer to this GTS Newsletter sometime ago saying how I reverse “flushed” my brake system at each annual. Someone commented that it was a lot of work. Well… Maybe every annual is overkill, so maybe every other year would be OK. What you have is an “open” hydraulic system. There is a static reservoir where fluid is added, and any loss will result in the level dropping. There is very little movement of fluid in the system. Therefore, any deterioration of the fluid can result in problems downstream. Now, the hydraulic system running the flaps and gear on the Swift is a “closed” system, where most of the fluid is circulating around the system each time the pump is activated. There should be little chance of fluid deteriorating in a specific spot in such a system. What I specifically do with the brake system is remove some fluid from the reservoir (maybe 4 oz), then reverse bleed one brake, remove some more fluid, and reverse bleed the other brake. It works for me. Never had a problem with “goo” since starting this about 30 years
LOCKING BRAKES… (NOV 03)
Subj: Brake question.
From: Eric Teder <eric.teder@verizon.net>
Hi Jim,
I have a T-18 (but I like Swifts) with Cleveland brakes and I wonder if I might ask you a question. My left brake seems to lock for no apparent reason. Firstly, my plane doesn’t have a parking brake. Sometimes I pull the plane out of the hanger with no problem but when I go to taxi, the left brake is locked. Once I landed and parked. A few hours later I tried to leave but the brake was locked. Sometimes, the farther I taxi the grabbier the brake gets. It seems like the brake locks itself with no pedal pressure. I can unlock the brake by loosening, then retightening, the bleeder nub and then go my merry way with on other problems. I took the brakes and master cylinders (I have one for each rudder pedal) off and had them cleaned and overhauled by my local shop. There was a lot of dirt in the master cylinders and they worked a lot better after they were cleaned. But…they still lock up for no reason (at least that I can see). Any ideas? Thanks, Eric Teder
Eric
I had that same thing happen. I took the brake off the axle but did not take off the pressure hose to the brake. I gently pushed on the brake pedal until the piston popped out of the caliper. I sanded the piston down to make it smooth and clean and also sanded the bore of the caliper, then installed a new “O” ring with lots of Vaseline. Bled the brake and it has worked fine since. — Jim
ANOTHER CASE OF “BRAKE GOO” (AKA RED JELLO)… (DEC 03)
Subject: RE: Brake Jello
From: “Owen, Larry” <Larry.Owen@Tenethealth.com>
Well, you did it again. I was reading your internet update about Brake Goo, I got the itch and the more I thought about it, the more I was convinced that N78287 had not had the brake system flushed in a LONG time. So last weekend I decided to bleed the brakes. The funny thing was, nothing was coming out after I cracked the bleed bolt, nor after I removed them. But something similar to Red Jello did come out after I pumped the brakes with the bolts removed. Sooooooo…. after filling, pumping, filling, pumping, etc, etc, I got some almost-like-Hydraulic fluid coming out. Not quite like what I was putting in, but closer. Next weekend, I will have a full gallon to play with and will get this done right. So if you can not remember when the last time you flushed the brakes,,,, Well, that’s been too long. Larry Owen N78287 El Paso, Texas 915-577-6832
BRAKE LINE TUBING… (APRIL 04)
Subj: Brake System Tubing Size
From: Austin Smith <swifter78261@hotmail.com>
Mr. Montague
Simple/easy/quick question here. What is the brake system tubing size that carries all the fluid from the hydraulic reservoir and other such places? My operational handbook for the swift is a photocopied version (I don’t believe the whole thing was photocopied) and it does not say the tube sizes. As always, much thanks. Swift Flying, Austin
Austin
All the hyd tubing in the Swift is 1/4″. This can be bought in rolls from Aircraft Spruce and other places. Additionally, they do have some original hyd lines ready made at Swift Parts in Athens.
BRAKE/HYDRAULIC LINE…(APRIL 04)
From: swifter78261@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: wheel well lines
Mr. Montigue,
It seems as though i have a never ending supply of questions regarding the uphill battle of restoration for 78261. I have recently embarked upon replacing all the brake/hydaulic system lines. i have finished everything except the installation of the lines in the wheel wells, this is where my question lies… (my apologies if you get lost in the description of my question). i have made duplicated of the old lines running to the gear through the wheel well, and upon installation, found they didnt fit quite so well. My grandfather had taken the originals out years ago, so i never got to see the original installed look of them. The problem lies in the location of the emergency gear retraction pulley that is located on the spar. One line is supposed to be secured to it, but gets the other lines in a mess when i try to put it in its proper place. I looked at the picture of Karl Johansons wheel well on the “past featured internet swifts” page. His wheel well appears not to contain a pulley on the spa; but only on the rib. looking at that same picture, it is the bottom 2 lines that interfere with the pulley on the spar. any word on whether they both go on top? or one below the pulley? any direction given will be much appreciated. Swift Flying, Austin
Austin
Well, when I first answered I did so from memory, after all I just installed those brake lines in 60B’s wheel wells a couple of years ago. Afterward, I thought “wait a minute — that ain’t right! Rather than tell you from memory I went over to the airport and looked at 60B. The brake line comes into the wheel well at the inboard rib where it is the top line going thru the angle at the lightening hole. The line goes down the spar and goes ABOVE the emergency pull down pulley on the spar. The line then has a 90 degree bend and it comes straight forward, ABOVE the other emergency pull down cable pulley (you had confused me by calling it a retraction pulley, you can’t retract the gear with the emergency cable) Ahead of the gear the line connects to an AN833-4 right angle fitting and there is a section of 1/4″ tubing in the closed area ahead of the gear. At the outboard rib of the centersection there is another AN833-4 fitting and then the 39″ hose runs thru the lightening hole and down to the brake. I hope that answers your question. The fly-in is next month which will give you a chance to see other airplanes. The lower of the 3 lines goes below the pulley bracket on the spar and to the lower bulkhead fitting on the rib. The middle line goes above the pulley bracket and to the upper bulkhead fitting on the rib. The upper 1/4″ line is the brake line. The 3/8” line is a fuel vent line. It still wouldn’t hurt to look at another airplane. — Jim
UGH… MASTER CYLINDER OVERHAUL…(APRIL 04)
Subj: Brakes
From: Terry Straker <TASGuitar@aol.com>
Hi Jim- Hope you are feeling good and ready for spring. I know I am ready! I wanted to ask about resealing the master cylinders. Went to fly last Friday after the LONG winter, and all I could do was turn left- no right brake. I obtained the cups and O-Ring kit from Swift Parts. I have read everything in the web site archives and the very limited advice in the Owners Manual, and was wondering if there is any thing else I should do/know. I will replace all the fluid and look for “goop” as my brake fluid hasn’t been changed since the Clevelands went on over a decade ago. I’ve got a nice foam pad to keep the gear crank from impaling my back during the ritual. Any other tips/tricks? And is petroleum jelly really the right lube thing for the o-rings in the brakes? And do I soak the cups in red fluid for a given time before install? As usual, your wisdom is greatly appreciated. Thank You! Terry Straker
Terry
The master cylinders unbolt individually and maybe you just want to do the one that is inop. Yes, petroleum jelly is the lube to use. It is not necessary to soak the cups, just coat them with Vaseline. Make sure you have a 1/4″ ratchet with a fine number of clicks for working in tight places, also a couple of small 3/8″ open end and box wrenches. Get the job done before the warm weather, it is plenty warm working under the panel with a drop light. Bleeding works best from the bottom up but you may have to remove the caliper from the axle and turn it upside down to get all the air out. — Jim
SMALL “O” RINGS…(MAY 04)
Subj: Brakes
From: TASGuitar@aol.com
Hi Jim.
I got the right master cylinder out with no problem. I opened it up and found the cup completely shredded, so I cleaned it all up, then got out my brake kit from Swift. It has 2 cups, 2 large O rings and 4 small O rings. It is obvious were the cup and large O ring go on the piston, but I can’t seem to find where the small O rings go. Can’t find any diagrams of the cylinders in any of my literature to reference, so was wondering if you can shed some light on the small O rings. I hate to put it all back together and not have everything replaced that is necessary. Thanks, Terry
Terry
I believe the small “O” rings go on the AN fittings at the end of the master cylinder. If you did not remove them don’t worry about them. — Jim